Dance in the Vampire Bund

[DarkNataku]

Yeah with covers like that I don't read it in public.

[old hat]

Originally Posted by Jatz

And yet:

I was talking about the actual content on the inside.

[Jatz]

Originally Posted by old hat

I was talking about the actual content on the inside.

I know. I was just saying that even with the decreased loli fanservice inside, they still have it prominently placed on the cover.

[ninemil]

Originally Posted by Jatz

I know. I was just saying that even with the decreased loli fanservice inside, they still have it prominently placed on the cover.

They have semi-naked teenage girls splattered across the K-ON CD singles - other than the obviously questionable undertone of watching hour upon hour of stupid little girls, behaving like stupid little girls, I don't actually remember K-ON being a lolita show either... Lesson to be taken from this? The covers, OPs and EDs generally mean absolutely nothing.

[Arch-Defender]

Originally Posted by ninemil

They have semi-naked teenage girls splattered across the K-ON CD singles - other than the obviously questionable undertone of watching hour upon hour of stupid little girls, behaving like stupid little girls, I don't actually remember K-ON being a lolita show either... Lesson to be taken from this? The covers, OPs and EDs generally mean absolutely nothing.

That's true, I think it is stupid to make a cover that will appeal to a certain group when the content itself appeals to another. The same can be said for trailers as well, the actual anime is usually different. Best example would be Disgaea, they even changed the story from the trailer to the anime.

[ninemil]

Originally Posted by animefanworried

That's true, I think it is stupid to make a cover that will appeal to a certain group when the content itself appeals to another. The same can be said for trailers as well, the actual anime is usually different. Best example would be Disgaea, they even changed the story from the trailer to the anime.

Misrepresentation makes money, that's why they do it. Sad, but in such a saturated market, they know pushing the boat out a little will get them the extra cash they need to cover costs.

[old hat]

Originally Posted by ninemil

The covers, OPs and EDs generally mean absolutely nothing.

It's not entirely unrepresentative either. If I posted Mina's 'exam' here it would be yanked and I would get an infraction if not a temp ban for posting it.

[Arch-Defender]

Nonetheless, if you want to keep your fans I say the content inside should match the content on the cover. If you saw a man with a gun in his hands and explosions behind him on the cover I'm sure you're not expecting a show about hardworking regular guy who makes friends (just an example, not based on an actual title). However, now that I think about it, they are shows that are true to their title in their cover, the cover of Fate/Stay Night was not misleading at all.

[ninemil]

Originally Posted by old hat

It's not entirely unrepresentative either. If I posted Mina's 'exam' here it would be yanked and I would get an infraction if not a temp ban for posting it.

If you posted Mina’s examination here, on its own, you’d be taking it entirely out of context, as you well know. It’s easily the most sinister scene in the series, and is fundamentally used to underpin Mina’s need to hide, and to define the personalities of the men responsible for that need – the same men that raped and murdered her mother, and now want her to sire them an heir. It’s also presented from beginning to end, as far as I can see, in a completely sterile, non-sexualized manner. A far cry from the completely fan-service led covers, or the irrelevant Shaft OP and ED that we were discussing.

Tbh, I think Mina’s exam was probably one of the bravest things he did with this series, and elevates his handling of mature content far above and beyond the usual exploitive crap we see in mainstream shows such as Queens Blade. The voice acting in the anime scene immediately following, where Mina curls up crying her heart out on Yuki, calling over and over for Akira…? Yeah, that was pretty much flawless. Few other seiyu could have pulled that off without hamming it up.

No offence, but I think you’ve picked a poor example here that would only feed the sensationalism. The opening few chapters, particularly when Mina is swan-diving pointlessly during the missile strike from the cathedral spire? Yeah, that’s unjustifiable service, and well worthy of the squick. But Mina’s exam? Something else entirely.

[ninemil]

Originally Posted by animefanworried

However, now that I think about it, they are shows that are true to their title in their cover, the cover of Fate/Stay Night was not misleading at all.

There are, although Fate isn't the best of examples for this either - particularly considering the Sakura arc in both UBW and the game itself. Fate/Stay is not the sterile family fun it likes to present itself as. I was pretty disappointed when they went there tbh - Sakura really didn't need sexualizing in such a crass manner, when she was blatantly supposed to be one of the cornerstones of Shiro's morality. The random ******** threesome with Rin and Saber was also a complete and utter joke, in what was otherwise a generally well-constructed show. Yay for random, non-representative les-yay ratings moments… o_0 Oh, and Ilya’s sub-dom scene with Shiro wasn’t much better either… She was what, nine? Plus she was also supposed to be his foster-sister, despite neither of them knowing in the anime canon. Definitely the action-packed, family-fun adventure that one’s cover likes to represent itself as o_0

It’s somewhat sad when I think I can honestly only really recall one show (Time of Eve) in the past five years that wasn’t loaded with pointless, character assassinating service. I suppose there was Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 as well, or is that older?

[DarkNataku]

Originally Posted by ninemil

Tbh, I think Mina’s exam was probably one of the bravest things he did with this series, and elevates his handling of mature content far above and beyond the usual exploitive crap we see in mainstream shows such as Queens Blade. The voice acting in the anime scene immediately following, where Mina curls up crying her heart out on Yuki, calling over and over for Akira…? Yeah, that was pretty much flawless. Few other seiyu could have pulled that off without hamming it up.

That whole event cemented in me that the 3 Lords had no redeeming quality to them, I hope Mina lands the killing blow on each one of them.

[old hat]

Originally Posted by ninemil

No offence, but I think you’ve picked a poor example here that would only feed the sensationalism. The opening few chapters, particularly when Mina is swan-diving pointlessly during the missile strike from the cathedral spire? Yeah, that’s unjustifiable service, and well worthy of the squick. But Mina’s exam? Something else entirely.

A scene doesn't have to lack story significance to be controversial. I don't agree that scene is entirely desexualized and sterile either. There is a definitely a sexual element to the scene. That's a fetish too. I don't find it titillating but some do.

Her treatment does serve a story purpose and it's important to her development. She doesn't have to be shown like that for the scene to work though. It's a shocking scene and highly charged. There are sexual undertones there. There are a lot of things going on in that scene and some would not be apparent if it were taken in isolation but the imagery is what it is.

[ninemil]

Originally Posted by DarkNataku

That whole event cemented in me that the 3 Lords had no redeeming quality to them, I hope Mina lands the killing blow on each one of them.

I'd rather see Akira do it for her - she's sacrifices enough of her remaining humanity dealing with the day-to-day politics of the Bund, and Akira states several times that he sees it as his responsibility to shield her from having to carry out such actions.

Really, emotionally, deep down Mina is still just a kid at heart - lonely and wanting to be loved, which is why she pins so much of her hopes on the promise they made back when Akira was a child. To have to hurt enough to want vengeance alone is bad enough, without actually having to take it too. Akira wants the manly role in her life, he should step up and fill it imo.

[old hat]

Mina is more complicated than that. She is a contradictory character. She is the shy, lonely, moe girl and the Queen of the Damned at the same time. I think a lot of her character revolves around her contradictory attributes. She isn't either a kind, gentle girl or a ruler that makes hard, cold decisions. She's both at once.

[ninemil]

Originally Posted by old hat

Her treatment does serve a story purpose and it's important to her development. She doesn't have to be shown like that for the scene to work though. It's a shocking scene and highly charged. There are sexual undertones there. There are a lot of things going on in that scene and some would not be apparent if it were taken in isolation but the imagery is what it is.

As a writer, I'd disagree. You can't construct a scene like that and make it work properly without showing her stripped down and vulnerable. The frame with the yawning perspective and the three of them watching her like vultures is the pinnacle moment of that. The shock and discomfort comes from actually seeing put her in that position, and relaying what she is emotionally enduring for the sake of her people, not from a rough notion of the concept alone. Vaguely articulating an abstract version of proceedings would not have worked the way it needed to, and would probably come off more fetishistic and closet, than serious and engaging. To shock, you have to use something shocking.

That said, I do agree - the imagery is what it is. Hence why I feel it would be taken out of context. But by the same token, a writer highlighting female insecurities is not the same as intentionally invoking the male dominatory fetish - whether you choose to engage the material in that mindset is in the hands of the individual's psyche, but I didn't see anything in those frames personally to suggest that that was his intent. As controversial a scene as it was, I thought it was one of the few sections in the books that do contain nudity that were entirely constructed around purpose. And while I certainly found the concept repulsive, (baring in mind that hymen examination is still, sadly, a persistent reality in eastern, and middle-eastern high-stakes marriages,) I loved it for that - good authors make you feel, mediocre authors pass your time. And let's face it, volume nine tastes all the better for it too, as we very definitely knew the bastard had it coming.

Perhaps it’s just me being arty about something I shouldn’t. But I thought in a genre loaded with sexual undercurrents and tongue-in-cheek fetishism, he did a good job of detaching a difficult scene from a broadly camp vampire culture to really drive his characterization home.